Posts by Crisis of Conscience

91

Newbie: Roll Call ---- Oldies Returning: Roll Call

by cameo-d in

jw
friends

i have noticed a lot of newbies lately.

(i also noticed that after being absent for a year happy1975 is making a return visit.).

so, if you are a brand spanking newbie, post here and tell us a little about your interests, your state, your new direction in life, your favorite things, whatever you want to say---this is your thread.. .

Crisis of Conscience

BTTT

Time for the new folk to gather up and introduce yourselves if you already haven't. Welcome!!

CoC

14

Why Do Witnesses (and others) Continue to Defend So STRONGLY Things That They Can't Absolutely Prove are True or Exist?

by Crisis of Conscience in

this is a little bit of a rant but i need to vent.

so i apologize if some things aren't clear.

just ask and i will do my best to explain.. i'm really trying to be patient with my wife.

Crisis of Conscience

@ ProdigalSon - LOL

@ leavingwt - Actually, you were kind of enough to send me a pdf of it when I first joined here. But I still haven't read it as I've been keeping myself too busy with this site. LOL But it's next on the list. I'm almost done reading Crisis of Conscience.

@ miseryloveselders - The Isrealites of the Bible were a strange bunch to deny what the Bible says they experienced and still deny God. I definitely would be a believer and not question anything if I saw the same things. The FDS has proven nothing to me and obviously now is making it even harder to confide in them.

@ chrisjoel - Thanks for your kind words. I do have a copy of In Search of Christian Freedom and I just thought about your idea a few days ago. Perhaps I'll sneak that chapter in first.

@ Farkel - You are absolutely right. I haven't forgotten how I once felt like that was the foundation to my life. Now, being on the other side, it is just so hard to fathom. I often feel like yelling, "Wake the h#$l UP!!"

@ minimus - Oh how true!!

@ Terry - Nice analogy! I appreciate that!

Thanks everybody for the food for thought!

CoC

10

Former Bethelite Dead....Police Unsure Whether it was Murder or Suicide

by Crisis of Conscience in

jw
friends

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2010/06/tempe_police_wont_say_whether.php.

i just got word of this and i'm completely shocked.

i knew him during my short time at bethel and i spoke to him regularly.

Crisis of Conscience

Thanks for posting the actual story and photo crazyblondeb !! I didn't even think about doing it that way.

CoC

14

Why Do Witnesses (and others) Continue to Defend So STRONGLY Things That They Can't Absolutely Prove are True or Exist?

by Crisis of Conscience in

this is a little bit of a rant but i need to vent.

so i apologize if some things aren't clear.

just ask and i will do my best to explain.. i'm really trying to be patient with my wife.

Crisis of Conscience

This is a little bit of a rant but I need to vent. So I apologize if some things aren't clear. Just ask and I will do my best to explain.

I'm really trying to be patient with my wife. She says I ask valid questions about our Witness beliefs to which she has no answer or to which no answer exists. But regardless, she continually tries to defend something that I can tell she has no answer to or doesn't understand.

For example, I brought up the 2009 Watchtower article about changing one's religion. I asked her when it said that no one should be forced to choose between their family or religion, who did that apply to, "worldly" people only or Witnesses also?

Now I brought this up because presently I am being forced to do that. I've been regularly communicating with a disfellowshipped relative and she's given me heat about it, to the point of sternly warning me that I could be disfellowshipped if I continue to disregard Jehovah's arrangement, the "loving" arrangement. (She is aware though that I have lost my faith in A LOT of what Watchtower has to say.)

Anyhow, this led me up to the point later of asking my wife that question. She replied by saying that it was written to wordly people. So I referred to another point in the article (don't remember at the moment what it was) and asked the same question. Here she said it could apply to either or. (I'm trying to indirectly get her to see the inconsistensies of what is said to others that supposedly and miraculously doesn't apply to or is applied by the Witnesses, this article being one.)

I then asked what in the article indicated which points applied to wordly folks and which to witnesses. She said nothing but that as a witness who has made a dedication to Jehovah, they wouldn't be putting their religion ahead of their family because they would be obeying Jehovah's law first.

I mentioned the scripture brought out in the article found in Deuteronmy about Jehovah giving the choice of life/death. I mentioned that if I choose death by communicating with a disfellowshipped relative, who's problem should that be? Mine, no? And no one else's.

She agreed and said no one is stopping me from talking to my relative, but said that I would have to face the consequences of those actions.

What kind of choice is that then? If it's in reality my decision, and according to the scripture I choose death, why should I face other consequences, be punished for it? In my opinion, there really is no fair choice on my part. If I am punished for it, then indeed I am being forced to unfairly choose between my family or my religion.

She disagreed. So I gave the example of paying taxes. I can make the choice to not pay them. But if I don't, there is a good possibilty of receiving some sort of fine, perhaps even jail time. So in effect, though my CHOICE may be not to pay, I am in effect being FORCED to put aside my want to not pay in order to avoid the consequences. Is that really a fair choice then, my choice?

I asked how this was different from speaking with a disfellowshipped individual but getting punished for doing it, for exercising my freedom of choice - life/death. Instead, I am being forced to unfairly choose between family/religion. What kind of choice is that?

She didn't have a response and I could tell she felt scared to hear that so I changed the conversation. However I did manage to point out how much of what is said in the publications is speculation because of the use of words like possibly, evidently, etc.

She asked me if that meant we can't trust anything the society says. I responded that saying things like possibly something took place or was said can also signify that an event DIDN'T happen.

Example: Jesus possibly talked to his disciples about how to grow a fig tree that produces fruit after he condemned the fig tree. There is no evidence to prove either way but many witnesses, upon hearing or reading that, will run with it and say Jesus talked to his disciples about this as it were fact! They believe it as something real!

That's why we have those stupid, unwritten rules about facial hair, tattoos, and R-Rated movies. People can't see the "possibles"! Its so annoying!!

If you made it this far, thanks for "listening."

CoC

10

Former Bethelite Dead....Police Unsure Whether it was Murder or Suicide

by Crisis of Conscience in

jw
friends

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2010/06/tempe_police_wont_say_whether.php.

i just got word of this and i'm completely shocked.

i knew him during my short time at bethel and i spoke to him regularly.

Crisis of Conscience

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2010/06/tempe_police_wont_say_whether.php

I just got word of this and I'm completely shocked. I knew him during my short time at Bethel and I spoke to him regularly. Last I heard he and his wife had been reassigned as special pioneers (technically not a Bethel layoff).

It is really hard to believe it could be suicide as the article mentions as a possibilty. He seemed like such an upbeat person.

Anyway, I thought I would pass this on to anyone that might have known him also.

CoC

43

For Atheists & Strong Agnostics: (Believers can counter-post also!)

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

for atheists and strong agnostics (those who believe that we cannot know about god if he exists):.

i am posting this thread because i think it greatly help myself (and other christian believers) to better understand your beliefs and your viewpoints, if you posted a short (or long) summary of what the reasons and basis are for your not believing that there is a god, or for believing that we cannot know god if he exists.. you can include arguments against god, against the bible, against the christian interpretations of the bible, etc.. you can include scientific evidence that you believe contradicts the bible, or contradicts the existence of a god/creator/designer.. christians believers: you are welcome to post counter-arguments, or summaries for why you believe in god/creator/designer or why you believe in the bible or the christian interpretations of the bible.. i also thought it might be good to link to another lively thread we had on this website a while back: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175688/1/god-morals-and-atheists.

when you include your reasons for why you don't believe in god or the bible, or why you do believe in god or the bible, please include at least a little bit of the evidence (or link to the evidence) that backs up your statement.. for example, it doesn't do much good to claim "evolution is false" and just leave it at that, or on the other hand, to say "the bible is full of scientific errors" and just leave it at that.. here are two threads i posted where i explained the reasons why i personally believe in god and the bible:.

Crisis of Conscience

I'm only about a year into these new feelings/thoughts/beliefs, so bear with me as I'm not completely sure as to what I truly believe.

But as I have posted before, many of the "miracles" that are written in the Bible are yet to be verified. And by verified I mean seen physically performed and observed in our day. (Just a few examples - donkey talking, sea splitting in half, wrestling with an angel, being swallowed by a "fish" and surviving, etc.) If they are all so TRUE, why don't they happen today, as something normal? It's really puts a damper on my belief of the Bible.

Many things regarding morality in the Bible still make sense, and I apply them where they make sense and where I can. But the credibilty regarding "miracles" is no longer there. Heck I can't believe I fell for it all these years.

As far as God goes, I don't completely write him/her/it off. Humans are truly capable of creating and making such beautiful and wonderful things. I don't think it is too far off to believe that we too were created. But by whom/what, and for what reason, I cannot answer, nor is it something I really ponder right now. Perhaps it's my age that is prohibiting that.

The part I struggle with in believing in a God actually involves my JW upbringing. I have no hope of going to heaven and could care less about arguing at this time about my final destination in the future. But assuming I have an "earthly hope", as I have been taught, why do I/have I spend/spent so much time trying to defend a being I will never meet? I am going to paste what I wrote about this at this link. http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/195425/1/Why-do-many-of-us-spend-so-many-years-defending-a-God-we-MAY-never-meet

As a JW who is part of the "great crowd" I will, as has been taught, never see God face-to-face, never meet Him.

So I "take in knowledge" about him, defend all these things that I just can't understand or explain why he would do them, and then still not physically see or get to know him?

When is the last time you spoke to someone REGULARLY on the phone, internet, etc. and not wondered what this person looks like or desired to meet them in person?

I do believe there has to be some sort of creator. It's kind of odd that things would've happened by chance, but that is another topic.

But this whole thing of putting faith in someone I have never seen, met, will see, or meet is really starting to falter in my mind.

I don't make any sort of effort to push these ideas on anyone. But it is very difficult for me to see and understand how people can "have faith" in the Bible or God with such simple logic. As a famous TV judge in America likes to say, "If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true." And that saying sums up my current feelings.

I hope I don't flip flop in my beliefs as much as the WTS! Oh yeah, GREAT topic!

CoC

22

Watchtower says: Anointed DO NOT have MORE Bible Understanding

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

the anointed do not have more bible understanding than the great crowd!.

the watchtower, june 15th, 1996, page 31:.

the other sheep today perform the same preaching work as the remnant, under the same trying conditions, and manifest the same faithfulness and integrity.

Crisis of Conscience

So technically, after praying for God's spirit and reaching my own conclusion/understanding on something, there should be no problem. If I disagree with a certain teaching, would I really be wrong, based on what was printed in the Watchtower, more than once?

It would seem like everything is fine looking at the printed word. But in deeds, I would be going contrary to the FDS! Subject to disfellowshipping for apostasy and not waiting on Jehovah with a humble spirit!

Boy does this make me sick!!

FDS says: "We know what is written but................................., we are the 'channel' and we are in charge! So there!"

Excuse me while I wipe up my vomit.

CoC

147

586/587 the K.I.S.S. approach --- no VAT4956, Ptolemy, Josephus needed

by Alleymom in

nabonidus -- 17 years.

nebuchadnezzar -- 43 years.

nabonidus -- 17 years

Crisis of Conscience

garyneal said My approach is to instill doubt using the same tactic Jehovah's Witnesses use to disprove December 25th being Jesus's birthday. Here is their formula:

JW: December 25 is not Jesus's birthday, you can go to any encyclopedia and confirm this.

Me: Jerusalem did not fall on 607 B.C.E., you can go to any encyclopedia and confirm this.

NiceDream already pointed it out. But I want to say it too.

Excellent point!! I never thought about that! Hope I get a chance to use it.

And I haven't read through all the info yet, but this is truly amazing!

CoC

13

If reading the Bible as a JW, why bother meditating?

by Crisis of Conscience in

i was inspired to write this based on a post in another thread.. as a jw you are told to read and let the bible speak to you.. that would mean that you could reach a different conclusion on a certain scripture or account.

but that may not coincide with what the fds has as an explanation or conclusion.

this in turn, according to the standard makes you wrong if you "want" to be humble and wait for "new light.".

Crisis of Conscience

This coincides with 5thGeneration's comment.

A fellow JW I was recently talking with said she was asked by someone how she knew that the things in the Bible are real.

She responded by saying because she's "done the research" by means of the Society's publications, namely The Bible - God's Word or Man's? She said plenty of evidence was provided.

Interesting, but the "research" was not done by her. She is taking what she read and running with it as if it is absolutely true, without a doubt or mistake.

Meditating on "research", that the GB has already done for her, has strengthened her faith in the Bible, she admitted.

Again I ask, why meditate? UN-BE-LIE-VABLE!!

CoC

101

Fill In The Blank: Jehovah's Witnesses Are The ------------- People On Earth!

by minimus in

jw
friends

.

Crisis of Conscience

Wait a second!! These other posts are confusing me! So they aren't the happiest?!!

I've been misled! LOL

CoC